Episode 8 - Boomer and Millennial Sound off on HOS Changes
In this episode you'll hear what two drivers think about the FMCSA's proposed changes to Hours of Service. Sam, a driver with decades of experience and millions of miles and Nolan, a company driver who's been driving over the road for just under 2 years.
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Michael Clements:
Welcome to Trucking for Millennials, where we engage with the future of freight happening now. My name is Michael Clements.
Aaron Dunn:
And I'm Aaron Dunn. We're here to help trucking and logistics professionals stay up to date and ahead of the curve as our industry evolves.
Michael Clements:
We're connecting with every step of the supply chain as part of our mission to increase transparency and provide world-class freight solutions.
Aaron Dunn:
Hey, there. Thank you so much for listening to Trucking for Millennials. This is Aaron from PDQ America. I'm really excited for you to listen to this episode. This episode is about the FMCSA's proposed changes to the hours of service regulations. We did one a few weeks back when they announced it. But we wanted to circle back around because the open comment period was extended to October 21st at the time that this podcast episode's being uploaded. That's about a week away. We wanted to give one more opportunity and one more reminder to the drivers out there that have yet to do so that this is your chance to have your voice heard. In this episode, you are going to hear from Sam. He's an owner operator with decades of experience behind the wheel for PDQ. Share his perspective on these proposed changes. You'll also hear from Nolan Fuller. He's a company driver and millennial. He's been driving for a little under two years.
Aaron Dunn:
In this episode, you'll hear the older perspective as well as the younger perspective on these hours of service changes. I will serve up the proposed change and then ask for each of their feedback. We did this on two separate discussions. Sam and I were in the same room, and we did a phone call out to Nolan. That's why you hear some of the audio changes, but I tried to break it up and improve it so it's a pretty straight forward listen. You'll hear me, then you'll hear Sam and then you'll hear Nolan.
Aaron Dunn:
I wanted to provide some context about this episode before we jump in, but also encourage you to check out the show notes. Especially if you're a driver, so you can go directly to... You can go directly to the FMCSA and leave a comment about these proposed changes. Enough news, and context and housekeeping there. Thank you so much for continuing to listen. As always, you can reach out to PDQ @PDQ on Twitter and Instagram or just send us an email. You can email me, Aaron, aaron@pdqamerica.com. We'd love to hear from you. Enjoy this episode. Let's roll.
Aaron Dunn:
I'm here with Sam Willoughby.
Sam Willoughby:
Yeah.
Aaron Dunn:
You're looking good, bright eyed and bushy tailed this morning.
Sam Willoughby:
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Aaron Dunn:
If you could, tell the listener a little bit about your role at PDQ and your background as a driver.
Sam Willoughby:
Okay. I'm an owner-operator. I have a tractor and trailer. I have a 48-foot step deck. My role is just to take loads. My background is I started driving in 1974. My longest job was I drove for a grocery company in Tyler for 24 years. I've been doing this... I've been with PDQ, I don't know, two or three years now.
Aaron Dunn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Willoughby:
Before that, I was down on the other side of the oil field with another trucking company doing the same thing.
Aaron Dunn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Willoughby:
That's about it.
Aaron Dunn:
Okay. On the line with Nolan Fuller, millennial truck driver. All right, Nolan. Tell me again, where are you driving from?
Nolan Fuller:
I'm currently on I-70 Westbound in Ohio headed to Kansas City. I'm with the Prosper Truck Yard. I drive vans over the road. I've been doing it for about two years now. It'll be two years in December or a little less than two years. I'm just loving it out here, and I think it's a great career so far.
Aaron Dunn:
I'm interested to hear from you what your view, from over the past few decades, how things have changed. Kind of what's your view on how things have changed over the past few years or few decades? As hours of service changes have happened or technology and all that kind of stuff. From when you started to now. Do you think things have changed for the better or... What's your take on that?
Sam Willoughby:
Some things are better. The safety of the equipment is a lot better. The company that I worked for driving the... Pulling the Dropboxes and Reefers, when I first started, we had some old trucks over there that were just death traps. No power steering, no air conditioning, holes in the floor board. There's one old truck over there that the frame was broke on it, weld it back up. When the DLT came in and finally started really doing stuff, that forced them into replacing their whole fleet which made it better for us. Much more comfortable, much safer.
Sam Willoughby:
At the same time, safety can be an overburden. It can be carried too far. Prime example is Exxon and XTO. XTO had to break off from Exxon because of safety regulations of their own people that got to the point they couldn't do jobs. There was a job we were on. It was in the middle of a cow pasture, no fence around the location. The Exxon guy said, "If a cow walked up on location, we will shut the job down." Okay, can we shoot the cow off? No, we had to wait until the cow leaves on its own accord before we start the job back up.
Aaron Dunn:
Really?
Sam Willoughby:
Exactly. That's how safety can be a burden, be a hindrance instead of a help.
Aaron Dunn:
Right. Yeah. That sounds ridiculous.
Sam Willoughby:
It is.
Aaron Dunn:
Because the cow's going to find a place.
Sam Willoughby:
Yeah.
Aaron Dunn:
And it's going to sit there.
Sam Willoughby:
Yep, exactly.
Aaron Dunn:
How do you feel about the current state of hours of service as it exists right now?
Nolan Fuller:
As it exists right now, it's stressful, but like you said, just being in it [inaudible 00:07:44]. It doesn't bother me so to speak. But it is still stressful nonetheless. It seems very limited.
Aaron Dunn:
Yeah. One thing that I hear quite a lot from truck drivers and read different comments of what people are saying is that, with the advent of ELDs, that it feels like a race against the clock. That it's a stressful thing to see that time count down. Do you share in that?
Nolan Fuller:
Absolutely. To be honest, with my company, we were on one was called something like an HAORBD or something which was electronic log but not ELD. I just got... Legally, all the big companies have to switch to actual ELD, I think, by the end of this year.
Aaron Dunn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Nolan Fuller:
I just got switched about a month ago. And even that change has been ridiculous. I think I was very comfy for a year and a half. They will allow me to... As long as I didn't go more than say a mile and kept it under 30 miles an hour, moving on the yard, I wouldn't have to go drive in there. But now, any time my speedometer reaches over five driving, automatic no matter what, no changes. And that's really frustrating.
Aaron Dunn:
Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah. Okay, I understand. The AOBRD it wouldn't kick in until you're a bit quicker. But [crosstalk 00:09:30] with the ELD
Nolan Fuller:
Yeah. See, that's what I had, and so I was very comfortable with that. Now that I'm realizing this ELD, it's pretty bad.
Aaron Dunn:
Let's move to... I want to get your hot takes on hours of service real quick. And we'll just kind of run through them in a rapid fire round in a way. The first one is the flexibility for the 30 minute break rule. By tying the break requirement to eight hours of driving time without interruption for at least 30 minutes and allowing the break to be satisfied by a driver using on-duty, not driving status, rather than off-duty. They're making the 30 minute break where you can do it when you're not driving rather than only off-duty. So, you can do it on-duty. Do you think that change helps you or hurts you as a driver?
Sam Willoughby:
I don't think it makes any difference either way, really. I don't like the mandated 30 minute break period. I don't care for that. I'm against any kind of new regulation because we've got so many now you can't keep up with them.
Aaron Dunn:
Yeah.
Sam Willoughby:
Changes like that, I think it's just fluff, really.
Aaron Dunn:
Yeah.
Sam Willoughby:
Yeah.
Nolan Fuller:
Oh, wow. That already sounds [inaudible 00:10:57]. The fact that... Wow. Okay. You could be a shipper or whatever getting unloaded and then that on duty time could fulfill your break and not have to wait an extra 30 minutes logged as off-duty. That definitely frees up time. And that's exciting.
Aaron Dunn:
This other one is modifying the sleeper berth exception to allow drivers to split their required 10 hours off-duty into two periods. One period of at least seven consecutive hours in the sleeper berth and the other period of at least two consecutive hours, either off-duty or in the sleeper berth. Neither period would count against the driver's 14-hour driving window. How do you feel about that one?
Sam Willoughby:
I never was wanting to split my sleeper time anyway because I usually drive, drive, drive. Anytime I get through at the end of the day, I'll just want to walk around a little bit and kick back. For guys that do that, I think that's great.
Aaron Dunn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Willoughby:
It gives them flexibility. But I'm an old man. I got to have my beauty sleep. Can't you tell by looking at me? I need my beauty sleep.
Aaron Dunn:
Definitely. No, I can tell you've taken a lot.
Sam Willoughby:
Yeah.
Nolan Fuller:
Okay, that's pretty nice. Currently, there's a thing called the 8/2 split which is a little similar to that. The difference is on this proposed change neither would count against your 14 hours which is very nice. Previously, it's real complicated. I've only used it, the 8/2 split that's currently in effect say five times. I've been driving for a year and eight months. Yep, a year and 10 months. Also, it's an hour less too. So it gives more flexibility. It seems very useful. No, not a bad change though, for sure.
Aaron Dunn:
Yeah. The third one is allowing one off-duty break of at least 30 minutes but not more than three hours that would pause a truck driver's 14-hour window. A 14-hour driving window, providing the driver takes 10 consecutive hours off duty at the end of the work shift. What are your thoughts on that one?
Sam Willoughby:
I kind of like that one. That goes back to the old school way, back when we had the... We could work 15 hours in a day. You could make that stretch out to a 20 hour day by doing these things like this.
Aaron Dunn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Willoughby:
It takes a little pressure off of you. At the same time, you got to realize that it's lengthening that day. All right. I see that you got to have 10 consecutive hours off.
Aaron Dunn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Willoughby:
Myself, I can do that. I can be up and do 18, 20 hours at a time. But there aren't many of us left that can. You know what I mean?
Aaron Dunn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Willoughby:
Some people just can't do that. Whoever's dispatching them needs to know that driver and what kind of rest he's got to have.
Aaron Dunn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Willoughby:
You talk about some of these big companies. I don't how they keep up with their names, much less get to know them. It all goes back onto the driver. He's got to be responsible for his own safety which is always the case.
Nolan Fuller:
It sounds pretty good, especially if every day you're trying to run out your clock. The fact that you could have the ability to nap two or three hours, and it pause your clock and you can keep running the rest of your clock out. If you're really making every mile of the day count, that's very good. I'm usually not that... I'm usually not running my clock out every day. So it's not a big deal for me. Again, more flexibility. It sounds pretty good.
Aaron Dunn:
Let's see the next one. Modifying the adverse driving conditions exception by extending by two hours the maximum window during which driving is permitted. Adverse driving... If it's heavy traffic, if it's the tropical storm, Imelda, that just went down South, I imagine that this would be an instance where... Hey, who knew that there would be flooding?
Sam Willoughby:
Right.
Aaron Dunn:
Let me drive for an extra couple hours. How do you feel about that one?
Sam Willoughby:
There are some gray areas there that they need to clear up. If you know the situation is there before you head that way, and you get in it, are you allowed to take that extension? If ice and snow in East Texas, for instance, that's just ridiculous the problem that it caused [inaudible 00:16:12] first. It always came up at this other place that I drove wheat. The worse it got, the more the orders came in, the heavier the load was.
Aaron Dunn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Willoughby:
The more product was shipped out. The worst the roads got, the more that went out. At the time, the rule was that if you encounter adverse conditions during your out, you could do this. But if you leave knowing it's there, do you get that extension or not? In other words, I can extend my day two hours, I'll make it. If it's already there, then you clear that up.
Aaron Dunn:
Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.
Nolan Fuller:
I guess I'm unfamiliar with that though. I feel like [inaudible 00:17:07] today, like the current adverse drop. How do you do that?
Aaron Dunn:
Yeah. You're talking to a guy who's not behind the truck too often either.
Nolan Fuller:
Yeah.
Aaron Dunn:
I wish I could help you out a little bit more. The next one, changing to the short haul exception. Available to certain commercial drivers by lenthening the driver's maximum on-duty period from 12 to 14 hours and extending the distance limit within which the driver may operate from 100 air miles to 150 air miles. So this is the short haul exception. Are you familiar with that one?
Sam Willoughby:
Yeah.
Aaron Dunn:
How do you feel about that?
Sam Willoughby:
I think that's fine.
Aaron Dunn:
Yeah.
Sam Willoughby:
I see no problem with that.
Aaron Dunn:
Right. It seems as if-
Sam Willoughby:
That's-
Aaron Dunn:
You're just adding more time and miles.
Sam Willoughby:
Yeah. You're giving a guy a chance to get off what he needs to get off for that day. During the holidays, these little Brown trucks that run around-
Aaron Dunn:
Yeah.
Sam Willoughby:
You know they got to hustle, hustle, hustle, and they're always wanting them to hurry, hurry, hurry. This here might slow that hurry, hurry, hurry business down.
Aaron Dunn:
Yeah.
Sam Willoughby:
When you hurry, you open yourself wide open to accidents, slips, and falls and all kind of crap.
Aaron Dunn:
Yeah.
Nolan Fuller:
Okay. That's very nice to know it currently applies to me, but I'm really considering getting a local job. It's good that it applies to me. Yeah. I imagine if you were in that situation it might be kind of a blessing. 100 to 150 in two extra hours, especially if you're doing short haul, you're on-duty unloading and notes and stuff. It takes up a lot more of your work day. I'm out here driving all day. If you're local like that, you're kind of out of the truck unloading, doing stuff more often. That seems like a pretty good change.
Aaron Dunn:
Overall, what are your thoughts on it as these changes are being proposed?
Nolan Fuller:
Overall, it's a great start, I guess. For what seems like it's been going downhill for the... Well, I'll say the past five to 10 years... Granted, I've only been driving two years. As far as mandates, the government, everything, limiting everything, seems like a good step. They give us a little more free time. If I could comment hear about one, the biggest probably issue of the whole system itself, which wasn't addressed at all in any of those, is the 70-hour reset clock. A 70-hour, eight day reset clock. What that is-
Aaron Dunn:
Tell me about that.
Nolan Fuller:
Okay. Yeah. As it stands, you can't be on-duty and driving, think of those times as same time combined for whatever the case. On-duty driving is 70 hours in eight days which it comes out to... You can drive for 11 hours currently beyond [inaudible 00:20:36] 14. If you did that for only five and a half days that you had reached that max before, you have to do 34 hours of the reset, not 24, not 12, 34. I think that's the biggest current issue [inaudible 00:20:57] as far as driving goes is the actual over long term 70-hour, eight day clock, which is what most over-the-road drivers are on.
Aaron Dunn:
Yeah. Yeah. And that's something that definitely, I haven't really talked too much about it. It's not addressed here. For somebody who... You mentioned your work schedule, you're usually out... Explain your work schedule.
Nolan Fuller:
Oh, okay. It's typically... I would start it shutting down at a truck stop for the night which that could be mid-day or midnight. I guess, typically, say I try to shut down early at four, three, four o'clock and take my 10 hours, get a maybe 12 or so [inaudible], and get a good start at three, four, five in the morning. Then I'll go to pick up a load or pick up trailers. I'll drop my next trailer, pick up, load it. Those are real simple. Or I could go into the dock and get loaded. Usually, you hope not to stop more than an hour. That's not FMSCA style, that's for shippers. That's a whole different thing.
Aaron Dunn:
Right.
Nolan Fuller:
Anyways. You hope you're not over there for more than an hour or a couple of hours. Usually I'm not. Then the rest of the day is driving. It's seven... Like I said, I'm not seven, eight hours of driving because if I ran that 11 hour drive and I drive 14 hours on-duty... If I ran that every day, I'd have to take one and a half days of stop jobs.
Nolan Fuller:
That's the plan. We run on what's called recaps, which is after the eighth day you get the hours back you drove and we're on-duty from eight days before, which sounds good but it's still limiting, obviously.
Aaron Dunn:
I appreciate that insight. Your insights and your feedback are definitely why they do this. They provide this window, the hours of service. This feedback period, this comment period is open until October 21st and that's about a week away once this podcast comes out. From now until the 21st your voice will be heard. FMCSA is required to read every single comment from truck drivers.
Nolan Fuller:
Oh, wow.
Aaron Dunn:
Your voice will be heard and considered. Have you done that yet?
Nolan Fuller:
No, I haven't. Please send me the link or whatever you can. I'll make sure sure to put my perspective on the comments.
Aaron Dunn:
I really appreciate your insight and your input here. We're going to... It's going to be these two perspectives. We have a boomer perspective and a millennial perspective. Thanks for being our millennial truck driver correspondent for today.
Nolan Fuller:
Oh, I appreciate it, man. I was happy to talk to you. It's been good [inaudible 00:24:30]
Aaron Dunn:
I appreciate your time, Sam. Do you have any other thoughts for anyone out there?
Sam Willoughby:
Just everybody to be careful. There's too many trucks on the road now. I see a lot of tailgating, impatience. I get impatient, too, with some of these guys that got 60 [inaudible 00:24:52] trucks trying to pass one another for miles and miles. You got to always think. Don't tailgate somebody because if a deer runs out or a car slammed on the brakes in front of them and you're riding on his bumper, what are you going to do?
Aaron Dunn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Willoughby:
You're going to be the first, the second one at the scene of the crash.
Aaron Dunn:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Sam Willoughby:
So, just stay off people's butt. There's so many hours in a day. You're just one man. You can't do but just so much.
Aaron Dunn:
Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Good advice. Thanks, Sam.
Sam Willoughby:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).